Tam, gdzie będzie przebiegała „Tarcza Wschód”, teren musi należeć do państwa – mówi Paweł Krutul, poseł i wicewojewoda podlaski z Lewicy.
.
At what stage is the construction of "Shield East" in Podlaskie Voivodeship, in our border regions?.
Paweł Krutul: At the preparatory stage, General Czosnek is responsible for it on behalf of the Ministry of Defense. Deputy Defense Minister Stanislaw Wziatek visited Hajnówka in late October. At this meeting, questions were raised primarily about the areas where the "Shield East" will be built, and a request was made to prepare a meeting between the Ministry of Defense and local government officials.
The draft law on "Shield East" published by the Ministry of Defense provides virtually unlimited possibilities for taking over land from various entities, including private individuals. Residents, especially of border villages, are in a panic. They hear on television from government representatives that construction of the shield will begin later this year, they see a bill covering expropriations, and they are unable to get answers from anyone about what awaits them.
That's why we are pushing the Ministry of Defense to make this meeting happen as soon as possible. It's understandable that residents of the border areas are concerned, they have their homes there, their properties.
https://krytykapolityczna.pl/kraj/klaus-o-strategii-migracyjnej-czuje-sie-oszukany-rozmowa/
Do residents of villages and towns near the border face displacement? .
The minister will answer this question. If the plots of land are directly adjacent to the border, the Ministry of Defense will want to buy these areas.
What distance from the border are we talking about?
Minister Wziątek did not answer this question either during his visit to Hajnówka or in an interview he will give to Radio Białystok.
I would like to ask more about this meeting in Hajnówka, which took place on October 24. Who did you meet with there?".
It was a meeting with activists of the Left, but there were also local government officials. The questions you ask were also asked there.
Listen to the "Eastern Bloc" podcast:.
https://open.spotify.com/show/4R0FjS5t23AQ7Zxtzfxbjx?si=3ab3822ff207433a
Do I understand correctly that this was a party meeting? Because there was no information about it anywhere, I know that local government officials, such as mayors of border municipalities or councilors of the Hajnówka district, were not invited. Nevertheless, after the meeting you wrote on social media that it was a meeting with local government officials and residents. .
At the meeting were former Hajnówka mayor Jerzy Sirak, now a district councilor, and former district chief Vladimir Pietrochuk.
This is a weak representation when it comes to local government.
As I said, this was not a meeting strictly with local government officials, but with activists, the deputy minister could only spend an hour on it. One of the first questions was about "Shield East."
And the answer was not given .
No, it did not fall. Minister Wziątek promised us that there would be another meeting.
When? .
Later this year.
And will there be a public consultation .
We will find out everything at the meeting I mentioned.
Do you know anything about whether at this stage of preparation for the construction of the shield, there will be any recognition of the ownership of the land adjacent to the border at all?.
This is the responsibility of the Ministry of Defense. They have certainly already made some preparations. You are expecting specifics from me, which I do not know.
These are the questions that residents are asking.
I understand this, which is why we are calling for a meeting like we did at the provincial office if only when we introduced the buffer zone.
https://krytykapolityczna.pl/kraj/manifest-suwerenistyczny-czy-ciemny-lud-kupi-rzadowa-strategie-migracyjna/
Do the government, ministers and military officials understand that, especially in the Podlaskie province, the border areas are inhabited by minorities? By Orthodox Belarusians, Ukrainians, Lithuanian minority, Tatarstan. In minority circles, plans for expropriation and displacement are already being talked about as a new Action "Vistula".
Various voices are reaching us, so as I said a minute earlier, we are calling for a meeting to be held as soon as possible, because all these questions you are asking me are bound to come from the floor. We want this to be clarified as soon as possible. On the other hand, the Ministry of Defense cannot be required to publish all the information about "Shield East," because this is a strategic construction.
I don't think it's possible to make it a military secret to cover expropriations or displacements, to hide them from the residents who will be affected..
Of course it can't be done. As the minister said, a special agency and an appraiser will be appointed for this, a market buyout price will be proposed.
So already at this stage we can say that the residents of the border municipalities must expect such an eventuality that such an appraiser with a letter from the Ministry of Defense will come knocking at their door?.
Where the "Shield East" will run, the land must belong to the state. It cannot be private land.
Unfortunately, the market price of the property has fallen over the past few years.
This, too, will be an important issue to raise at the meeting with representatives of the Ministry of Defense.
When the shield was presented, it was said that various types of structures would reach as far as 50 kilometers from the border [in May, such assumptions were presented by the Ministry of Defense - editor's note]. deep into Polish territory..
I don't think it's that much, it sounds like some kind of a hoax. It's impossible.
For several years now, the residents of our region, especially the border municipalities and counties, have been facing additional costs due to the militarization of the region. We face, for example, such a trivial problem as the lack of mobile network and Internet coverage. Over the past three years, the quality of these services has deteriorated drastically, we hear in operators' showrooms that the military is jamming the signal, on top of that there is a higher load on the transmitters. But no one is offering a solution, the operators are rejecting complaints. We are secondarily digitally excluded.
On November 5, the Deputy Minister of Digitization will be in Bialystok. This is a question strictly for this ministry.
https://krytykapolityczna.pl/kraj/przemoc-i-pushbacki-sa-zaprzeczeniem-kontroli/
After the visit of Deputy Minister Wziatek of the Ministry of Defense to Bialystok and, as it turns out, to Hajnówka, you spoke with great optimism at a press conference that you see the future of the Podlaskie Voivodeship as a militarized region, where the military will be the largest employer.
We do not have a large industry in the region, compared to other provinces there are not many companies here. If everything goes according to plan and the First Podlasie Legion Division is established, the military will indeed be the largest employer here. I think it's a very good, reliable employer, if only in front of banks, when you need to take a loan, etc. Unfortunately, we have the position on the map that we have, the military will definitely be more with us. New units are already slowly opening, although the period of their formation will be many years.
How many of these new units will there be?
At the moment we have Czerwony Bor, Wojewodzin, Kolno and Siemiatycze. A sapper unit has opened in Augustow. So that these units are increasing.
How many soldiers will it be in total?
About 30,000 soldiers are planned, if everything goes according to plan. This is not an easy process, because we have a problem with demographics and getting young people into the army. On the other hand, it's a plus for the province that those who decide to join will be able to stay in the Podlaskie area.
Are there any studies showing whether the militarization of the region is really the vision of the future that residents, especially young people, wish for?
We see this in military recruitment centers, which are reporting record numbers of people applying to serve in the military.
You also said at the press conference that to serve one soldier usually creates two jobs in the private sector. What is this servicing of a soldier? What kind of jobs are these? We have a makeshift barracks in Dubichy Cerkiewne for the third year, but the jobs that have been created around them can be counted on the fingers of one hand.
Not everything will be within the unit. These are the laundries, it's the food supplies that are prepared for the units, it's other services, such as hairdressers and schools. New housing will have to be built around these units, that's where families will move in or be established. This is an added value for us, because Podlasie is depopulating.
These are not very innovative sectors of the economy, but the simplest services. You talk about the demographic situation in Podlasie. Since we will have 30,000 soldiers in the new units, 60,000 people will be needed to service them according to your formula.
Editor, this will not happen all at once, in a year or in six months. It could take a decade to build the Podlasie Division.
But we already have a huge hunger for personnel in the labor market, which employers are trying to satisfy with migrants. In fact, this is happening all over Poland, although it is here in Podlasie that demographic indicators are among the lowest. I don't think these jobs you are talking about will attract workers from other provinces. So who will "service" these soldiers? Migrants?.
This process will take years. We won't do it in one year.
https://krytykapolityczna.pl/kraj/rasisci-zrobili-kalkulacje-wyszlo-im-ze-to-dobry-moment-by-urzadzic-pogrom/
Were plans for the militarization of Podlasie consulted with the local business community? I came across an article some time ago in the Podlasie Business Zone about the impact of this process, including the construction of "Shield East," on entrepreneurs. The president of the Bialystok Chamber of Industry and Commerce said: "We are facing a deep crisis, the construction of Shield East will not change much. We will build fortifications and what next? The investment will last a few years, then there will probably be money for its maintenance, but this will not be enough for everyone. Podlasie is being treated like a controlled crumple zone in a car. Not all companies will have the opportunity to retrain, many industries will suffer losses." And the president of the Suwałki Chamber of Industry and Commerce says the shield will not help business: "For us, the very fact that there is talk of the Suwalki Isthmus is already a huge tragedy. When it still starts to say that they are building tank barrages here, it will scare away potential investors altogether. Talking about it is a detriment to entrepreneurs." Podlasie business is not reacting enthusiastically to the government's plans for the region..
We have no other option. This shield will be built, as the prime minister said, along the Polish-Belarusian border and along the border with the Königsberg region. This is nearly 800 kilometers. We have the neighbors we have. There is open warfare in neighboring Ukraine, now joined by North Korean soldiers to reinforce Putin's army. We have to be ready for all scenarios. We have to be prepared for certain things to ideally not happen at all. I, for one, can't imagine our localities looking like they do in Ukraine. That's why we are taking a pre-emptive step.
That is, we are liquidating the villages near the border ourselves, yes?
No, certainly what you said about 50 kilometers is unrealistic. It will be much less.
But after all, that's how much the defense lines have. If they are really to fulfill their functions, what is the alternative?.
It will be a much shorter distance from the border. Residents will get a concrete answer at a meeting with representatives of the Ministry of Defense. We will certainly do everything to make Podlasans safe. This is the most important thing for us.
Podlasians too?.
All residents of Podlaskie Voivodeship, all who come here, stay here permanently, temporarily. Everyone needs to be safe in the Podlaskie province. I really would not like to have this fence on the Polish-Belarusian border, but unfortunately we have the situation we have. After all, we also have mixed families with Belarusians, we live in symbiosis, there is not the slightest problem with this. But unfortunately, Lukashenko follows all the orders of the Kremlin.
We are talking about an investment that in its size, price and interference with the social fabric is downright monstrous. Are the plans for "Shield East" based on any specific scenarios, on some modeling of what an armed conflict with Russia might look like?.
I can't answer this question either. You have to ask the Ministry of Defense about it.
"Shield East" will be a very large intrusion into the territories and into the cultural landscape, which is particularly valuable for minorities, for their identity, for their sense of rootedness. It is among minorities that this plan related to expropriation and displacement evokes the worst associations. It's about the Pale of Allegiance, when the Russian army actually manipulated people to abandon their homes and wander deep into Russia, from which many did not return. But it's also about the post-war ethnic cleansing that accompanied the process of delimiting the border with Soviet Belarus.
These are unfair comparisons, because we do not want to harm anyone in any way. If there will be property buyouts, it will be at market prices.
https://krytykapolityczna.pl/kraj/co-wynika-ze-strategii-migracyjnej-analizujemy-odzyskac-kontrole-zapewnic-bezpieczenstwo/
Yes, but not everything can be compensated with money, for example, breaking up communities, pulling up roots.
For us, the most important thing is the safety of residents. We regret it, but we have an unpredictable neighbor.
And maybe the "Shield East" is actually meant to fight migration?.
No. As a provincial office, we hope that sooner or later we will have border crossings open again, and we hope that this will happen as soon as possible. Unfortunately, this is a political decision between Brussels, Warsaw and Belarus. We would like these crossings to be open and for people who want them to be able to apply for asylum at them.
But after all, the government, which you as deputy governor represent, has just announced that it will suspend territorially and temporarily the right to asylum. .
Well, just as you say yourself: temporarily.
And territorially on the border with Belarus, that is, primarily in Podlaskie. Do you support this suspension of the right to asylum? .
Whether it happens will depend on the other side, on what happens in Belarus and what signals come from there.
Returning to the specifics of the border landscape, the issue of Bialowieza Forest is also of concern. As a dense, natural forest that is swampy in many places, it is itself an excellent obstacle to land warfare.
This is what Minister Wziątek said at a meeting with the director of the Bialowieza National Park. This was her first, completely understandable question to the minister.
So no fortifications will be built on the territory of the Bialowieza Forest?.
This I do not know for sure. I can only refer to what the minister said in a conversation with Ms. Olimpia Pabian, director of the BPN. And he said that there are places that are a natural barrier and where the elements of "Shield East" will not need to be built.
Is the government considering abolishing forest districts in the Bialowieza Forest and transferring it to military management?
I have never heard of such a thing. This is our heritage, we must take care of it.
I would still like to return to the militarization plans, of which you are a staunch supporter. Is it really possible to talk about any development when the military becomes the economic nucleus for Podlasie? After all, this means dependence on state funds, which are spent arbitrarily and without public control, because the military can always hide behind secrecy. We also have, as residents, a lot of experience with the military's presence. You say that it is a reliable business partner. Meanwhile, we have situations that show that it is a rather capricious contractor that takes advantage of the power advantage behind it.
What does capricious mean?
Today he is, tomorrow he may not be, he changes terms on the fly. He agrees to something and then doesn't carry it out, doesn't service the premises he uses..
These problems will end when the units are established and when the military is on its premises. Any inconveniences that arise now should be reported to the commander.
Only that we as residents do not know who the commander is. Since the military arrived in the region, no information about this has reached us. .
The 18th Mechanized Division is responsible for the main command in the Podlaskie region. If any local government officials would like a contact, I would be happy to provide access.
From what you say, it seems that the improvised barracks that have been set up in, for example, the Dubicze Cerkiewne or Białowieża municipalities, but also other border municipalities, will simply disappear..
Most likely, yes. If the barracks and all the infrastructure are already standing, some of it will surely disappear.
We will meet a year or so after the elections, which were won by the so-called coalition on October 15. This was supposed to be a democratic change after eight years of rule by the predecessors, and I know that many border residents were really looking forward to it. We had had enough of manipulation, fear-mongering, chaotic militarization, increased control and surveillance by the services. But instead of relief, instead of a reasonable correction of border policy, we got plans for expropriation and displacement from the new democratic government. This creates existential anxiety, fear for our own homes, for our own future.
When we drew the course of the buffer zone, entrepreneurs and local government officials from border towns were also there. Their voice weighed in. Your editor knows very well that we managed to bypass many localities in this way, we reached an agreement. Tourism has suffered this season, that's without question.
https://krytykapolityczna.pl/kraj/rozmowa-z-sainab-uchodzczynia-z-somalii-rumienczyk/
It suffered in previous ones, too, and with such policies there is no prospect of a rebound.
I hope that funding will be found for this, including from European money. As the provincial office, we are really lobbying all ministries for this. The provincial governor has arranged additional funds for the promotion of Podlasie, nearly PLN 1.5 million. This has had an effect - maybe not on the scale we would like, but a lot of tourists nevertheless returned, decided to come. I always show my friends our region, they are very positively surprised, even charmed. They also notice, of course, what the editor says - that there is a lot of military in the area, in the Bialowieza Forest. At the provincial office, we will really do our best to raise funds and compensate these losses to businesses, small and large, because the construction of "Shield East" will certainly affect the perception of Podlasie. That's why we are also keen for Podlasie companies to participate in its construction.
But it will be companies from the construction industry. And what about the rest?".
Yes, but it will be an increase in their capacity, additional jobs.
Yes, but there are voices coming to me that these local construction companies would have to expand their employment. As I said, it's not easy in our province, so they would probably be migrants. And then, when the construction is over, these companies will be left with these people and won't know what to do with them.
The engineering troops will be in charge of the construction, but surely with an investment of this scale and over such a long stretch they can't handle it alone. All parliamentarians and parliamentarians from Podlasie will try to make sure that in such a situation these funds are redirected to our local companies.
Will you, as a politician of the Left, represent the interests of the civilian side or the military side in the process, the public consultations that I hope will take place? You are known for your, let's call it, militaristic inclinations. And today, border residents often feel that no one represents them - neither politicians of the ruling coalition nor the opposition.
My small homeland is the Podlaskie Voivodeship and I will do everything to make it safe.
**
Paweł Krutul - Podlasie entrepreneur and politician, member of the Sejm of the ninth term. Initially associated with Nowoczesna, he was vice-chairman of the party's board in Podlaskie Voivodeship. In 2017, he switched to the Civic Platform. In 2019, he switched to Spring, becoming head of its structures in Podlasie. In the 2019 parliamentary elections, he ran from the first place of the SLD list in the Podlasie electoral district and won the only seat for the Left from the region.
