In the eyes of people outside Poland and Ukraine, the dispute over Volyn is a pyramidal absurdity [interview].

The Ukrainian side recalls the agreement according to which the Polish side was supposed to renew the plaque on Mount Monasterz, destroyed back in 2015 by unknown perpetrators, probably pro-Russian circles. The monument was restored by the Polish side in 2020, only without the plaques bearing the names of UPA members killed in combat with the NKVD. The Ukrainian side is right here that the monument was not restored to its original shape. Just note the asymmetrical nature of the whole affair: we have the commemoration of UPA members, who are, after all, perceived unequivocally negatively in Polish history, who have their graves with crosses on the Polish side of the border, while on the Ukrainian side we have a gigantic job to do to find the places where not only the victims of Volhynia, but also the victims of the Polish NKVD operation or the soldiers of September 1939, among others, were accidentally buried. The Ukrainian ban on search and subsequent exhumation is total, and applies to all Polish victims of armed conflicts, many more of whom are laid to rest in Ukraine than Ukrainians in Poland. The disproportion, in terms of the number of victims, is enormous.

I understand that exhumations are needed. But I don't understand why right now, when Ukraine is struggling for life. In 2022, already after Russia's attack on Ukraine, a Memorandum on Cooperation in the Area of Remembrance was created between the Ministers of Culture of Poland and Ukraine. There was already a first agreement on the search conducted by a Polish-Ukrainian team. In 2023, the Polish and Ukrainian ministers laid wreaths together at the Volyn Square, at the monument to the victims of the massacre. The assumption was that further work would be carried out after the war. What has changed since then?.

In order to begin exhumations, Ukrainian search permits are first needed, and these have not been issued by the Ukrainian side in recent years, except in three cases. In these three cases, Polish victims have been found - soldiers of September 1939 and victims of the Volhynian crime in Puzhniki - but permission to exhume them and bury them with dignity is still not forthcoming. From the Polish side's point of view, the war is not an obstacle to the whole action, especially since it mainly concerns western Ukraine, where the security situation is much better than in other regions.

In the Ukrainian media, there is sometimes a belief that Poland allegedly wants to force Ukraine to accept the Polish interpretation of the Volhynian history. In the meantime, all we are concerned with is the lifting of that unfortunate, immoral ban on searches and then exhumations. The Germans, despite the ongoing war, search for World War II Wehrmacht soldiers in Ukraine all the time, they can do it all the time and they get permits. Poles do not get permits to look for, for example, Polish soldiers of the Polish-Bolshevik war, who also fought to liberate Kyiv.

https://krytykapolityczna.pl/swiat/wolyn-pamiec-polska-ukraina-portnov/

Is it really the case that Poland does not want to force Ukraine into its version of history? In Poland, few people understand that Bandera is not an unambiguous figure, that in Ukraine he is a symbol of the fight against Soviet imperialism, and not revered as a Pole. And with Bandera, politicians say, Ukraine will not enter the Union either.

Ukraine has the right to interpret its hero in its own way, but it must reckon with the consequences. If we were to erect monuments to criminals who were responsible for anti-Jewish pogroms, it would jeopardize Polish-Jewish relations.

At the November 11 march, anti-Ukrainian slogans are clearly visible. Prime Minister Morawiecki laid flowers at the monument to the Swietokrzyska Brigade, we have a monument to Kuraś - "Ogno", anti-Semitism was so widespread that if we checked the characters we put on the pedestals from this angle, we would have a problem with the writers as well. Polish patriots burned Orthodox churches in Podlasie and Chelm region. In Hajnówka, marches are held in honor of the murderer .

But we don't worship them - and this is the difference. At the state level there is no cult of criminals. In Hajnówka we have speeches by radical forces that do not rule the state. In contrast, in Ukraine we have a cult that is approved at the state level. If monuments are erected and streets named after a criminal who was co-responsible for the Volhynian crime, which was undoubtedly Roman Shuchevych, this is a problem. Even if we assume that Ukrainians honor him for fighting the Soviets and not for crimes against Poles, we have the right to say we don't like it.

Roman Shuchevych, commander of the Ukrainian Insurgent Army, is less known in Poland, politicians do not talk about him. Well, and the Ukrainian Insurgent Army itself is not unambiguous..

The UPA had two dimensions. One that we mainly see, which is the anti-Polish one, but it also had a dimension that was probably crucial for the UPA itself, which is anti-Soviet. That's why there's probably something to be done on the Polish side as well - to accept that the UPA was not only an organization that carried out ethnic cleansing of civilian Polish residents, but also fought the Soviet occupiers even a few years after the end of World War II.

https://krytykapolityczna.pl/swiat/bryc-kremlowski-monolit-moze-zaczac-kruszec-rozmowa/

If we were the ones who were attacked, if our power plants, hospitals, homes were now burning, and our children were sitting in shelters, surely we would willingly proceed to account for our own sins of decades ago? .

At the interstate, Polish-Ukrainian level, we are not talking about a dispute over history, but a dispute over the most contemporary issues possible, namely the Ukrainian ban. Why is a state that is waging an existential war so stubbornly unwilling to lift it?

From reports of a meeting between Minister Sikorski, Lithuanian Foreign Ministry head Landsbergis and President Zelensky, it appeared that Landsbergis did not support Sikorski on the exhumation issue. I understand that there are also backstories on the Polish-Lithuanian line, and Poland is seen in them as the one who blocked Lithuania's independence, but is this conflict on the international arena at all understandable?.

Polish-Lithuanian relations today are the best in recent history. A lot has already been worked through and understood on both sides of the border. I have the impression that the issue of Polish-Ukrainian tensions in the eyes of people outside Ukraine and outside Poland is completely incomprehensible, it looks like some kind of pyramidal absurdity, where two countries, one of which is in an existential conflict, are arguing about no one knows what.

https://krytykapolityczna.pl/swiat/czy-wypada-jechac-na-wakacje-do-ukrainy/

Volhynia has been talked about again for several weeks, just when Ukraine is on the offensive at Kursk. What is the situation on the frontline at the moment?".

The Russians are the offensive side, slowly but steadily moving forward. The Ukrainians are having increasing problems. They will probably hold out for a while longer in the Kursk region, while they have much bigger problems on the Donetsk section of the front, where the situation is generally bad for them and getting worse.

More help from the West would be needed. .

There is no doubt about that. Ukrainians have long said that aid promised by various countries is often late. The 45th Polish military aid package, worth about €100 million - mostly ammunition - was handed over during the vacations. Poland, in relation to its GDP and economy, is doing much better than many countries with stronger economies. In absolute numbers, we have given aid worth more than the French. So I have the impression that, unfortunately, still not everyone has understood how serious the situation is.

That's the moment when public support for Ukraine is important, and it's falling because Volyn is the key issue in reports about it. People are beginning to forget that Ukraine is also fighting in our interest..

And at the same time, the ongoing dispute is not in the interest of either Poland or Ukraine. Again, I will emphasize this: the legal plaque on Mt. Monasterz has no names and the Ukrainians raise this, but they maintain the ban on search and exhumation, which is an asymmetrical response, although they need the support of the Polish public. Not surprisingly, it affects public emotions.

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And for the experts you met with in Kyiv, is this policy clear? Do they think President Zelenski is treading wrongly, or do they rather see the problem on Poland's side?".

You have to remember that the media market in Ukraine looks different than in Poland, we have much more pluralism. We have Krytyka Polityczna and the more conservative Rzeczpospolita, we have Dziennik Gazeta Prawna, various portals. A wide spectrum of opinions, including a critical current towards various dark issues from Polish history. This is something that does not exist in Ukraine, which has various dark pages in its history, as any nation does. For example, the issues of anti-Jewish pogroms perpetrated by the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists on a much larger scale than that of Jedwabne and its surrounding towns. So far in Ukraine, a similar discussion as in our country has never been undertaken. The current of critical historiography is virtually nonexistent there, except for a handful of émigré historians. But there are voices in the Ukrainian media, such as those of Andriy Deschitsa, the previous Ukrainian ambassador to Warsaw, who said that the Ukrainian ban affects Ukrainian interests.

The scenes of grain being dumped on the tracks were a shock to Ukraine, and were also misunderstood in the EU. However, grain is flowing from Ukraine via Romania and through a corridor across the Black Sea. They managed without us, but the bitterness remained. Did relations break down just then?.

Fortunately, Ukraine was able to renew earlier export routes through Black Sea ports. Remember that Ukrainian grains traditionally did not go to the European market, but to the markets of countries of the global South, mainly the Middle East. When the Ukrainians effectively unblocked the channels through the Black Sea last year, exports returned to their pre-war status.

https://krytykapolityczna.pl/swiat/bendyk-blokada-granicy-uderza-w-zdolnosci-obronne-ukrainy-rozmowa/

This also alleviated this problem, affecting virtually all the countries that neighbor Ukraine - Slovakia, Hungary, Romania - which treated this as competition for their market and closed access to Ukrainian grain. So this is not just a Polish issue. Fortunately, tensions have been eased with this renewal of the corridor through the Black Sea.

Romania has created a special transmission route, developed transit infrastructure and is still making money from it. We did not want to take advantage of this opportunity..

One must also keep in mind the cost of logistics. Agri-food products are transported by sea, and it is much closer to Romanian ports from Ukrainian chernozem than to Baltic ports.

Do you see an opportunity to improve Polish-Ukrainian relations, so that it is clear to everyone why Ukraine's victory is crucial for us as well?.

The current dispute is not something that cannot be resolved. I don't want to demonize the various Polish-Ukrainian tensions, because they are unfortunately natural between neighbors. Poland supports Ukraine all the time and often lobbies in Ukrainian interests. Antagonizing such an ally in a situation of war conflict seems to me an unwise action. As a recommendation, I would say that there are some things to be done on the Polish side, and more on the Ukrainian side. It should be in the interests of both Poland and Ukraine to settle this dispute as quickly as possible.

What about more red lines that the West is afraid to cross? The offensive at Kursk has weakened, what will happen next?".

The Ukrainian offensive is no longer there at all. The Ukrainians have dug in in the Kursk region and are trying to hold their position there, as they have gone on the defensive.

The Prime Minister of Denmark is urging people to simply stop these talks about red lines, just start helping Ukraine in real terms..

Minister Sikorski also called for "just realistically helping Ukraine." He said publicly that NATO countries should shoot down missiles over the western part of the Ukrainian state.

https://krytykapolityczna.pl/kraj/hubner-zmiany-ktore-teraz-zachodza-nie-respektuja-granic-rozmowa-z-danuta-hubner/

This is what President Zelenski has long been calling for.

And he has support in many countries on NATO's eastern flank. For now, however, there is no consensus when it comes to key countries, primarily the United States, where, by the way, Zelenski is now. He has brought a new peace plan, the details of which I think we will learn in the next few days. However, his main demand is - in somewhat less diplomatic language - that the West get on board and support the Ukrainian state on a much more serious scale than it has done so far, giving it real security guarantees. These are very legitimate calls. Ukraine is a state that is completely dependent on Western military assistance, and without that assistance it will lose the war. On the other hand, without NATO membership, it will have an endless problem with Russia.

Are Polish politicians still working intensively together with Denmark, Lithuania or Estonia for increased aid to Ukraine?

Yes, this is a sphere that is not affected by other problems in Polish-Ukrainian relations. I think that one of the most important tasks of Polish diplomacy is to appeal for more aid for Ukraine all the time. I observe this myself, seeing Polish diplomats in action. We as OSW are also doing this. I'm just in Berlin, where the conversation is not about banning exhumations, but about the fact that Ukraine needs support, that this is Europe's common interest. If Ukraine loses this war, our arms spending, not just Poland's, will increase significantly. It is easier and cheaper to support Ukraine now as much as it needs, than - may it never happen - after it loses the war.

https://krytykapolityczna.pl/swiat/wyludnianie-kryzys-zdrowia-psychicznego-militaryzacja-jaka-bedzie-ukraina-po-wojnie-rozmowa/

There is a new EU defense commissioner, Andrius Kubilius. Are there already any leaks, information, what his agenda will be?.

There aren't. Keep in mind that he is not yet formally a commissioner, because he has not yet been approved. The question remains as to what this new position will be, what his real powers will be, and whether they won't be a bit paper.

**

Wojciech Konończuk - Director of the Center for Eastern Studies.

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Co-funded by the European Union

Translation is done via AI technology (DeepL). The quality is limited by the used language model.