We want Ukrainian children to have the opportunity to learn the Ukrainian language, to have their Saturday classes, where they learn about their history, their geography, learn their songs. On the other hand, we can't allow them to function in a separate educational system," says Secretary of State at the Ministry of Education Joanna Mucha.
This text has been auto-translated from Polish.
Katarzyna Przyborska: Piotr Zgorzelski, deputy speaker of the Sejm from the PSL and your coalition partner from the Third Way, praised the idea of extending compulsory education to Ukrainian children, but was concerned that the Ministry of Education would be neutral on the curriculum in so-called Saturday schools, Ukrainian schools. "There can be no consent to content that builds the identity of young Ukrainians on Bandera ideology," he - he repeats in various media. But he has no problem with the state having no influence on the content taught in religious lessons..
Joanna Mucha: I find Speaker Zgorzelski's statement unwise, to say the least. These children have been in Poland for two and a half years. Until June, they were studying in Ukrainian schools or in the Ukrainian online system. I didn't hear the Speaker worry about the program during that time. We, by including Ukrainian children in the Polish educational system, increase control over the content taught. And besides, it makes no sense to look for any hostile content to Poland in the Ukrainian educational system. Let me remind you that we have established a Joint Ukrainian-Polish Expert Commission for improving the content of school textbooks in history and geography, whose goal is precisely to check the educational content in history, geography, in order to find in them what we jointly want to teach our children. So that we build bridges, not create divisions.
Will it be education for the future?.
With such an idea, to remember the past, but to cultivate a good relationship between the two nations. Of course, there are difficult elements in the past of our two countries, but that doesn't mean that we can't develop content in the educational system that both sides will accept. All those who lived through the terrible events of decades ago say that the most important thing is to make sure it never happens again. And to make sure it never happens again, we need to build understanding between our nations.
Refugee children have been in many Polish schools for two years, and they have already managed to encounter hostility from other students, who reminded them of Bandera, constantly present in Polish journalism by the way, or Volhynia. Under Przemyslaw Chernek, in the midst of the Russian invasion, at a time hardly conducive to reflection on the past, a school competition on Volhynian crimes was promoted.
Minister Czarnek did not do a good job. He didn't monitor Ukrainian schools - either on-site or online - for 2.5 years. He didn't have time to take care of it, but he did manage to hand out a lot of money to his friends.
Why is the PSL meddling in education? Do we really not have enough patriotism in school so far?.
After Speaker Zgorzelski's statement, I spoke with other PSL representatives. They did not share this narrative. On the contrary, some were outraged by his words.
But behind the idea of patriotic education and the patriotic package stands not only Marshal Zgorzelski, but also Wladyslaw Kosiniak-Kamysz..
In my view, this is seeking votes on the side of PiS voters, creating a political offer for them.
Is this convenient for Poland 2050?
Every year, the MEN develops so-called educational priorities. This year, civic and patriotic upbringing is second among these priorities, right behind health. I find the allegation that there is not enough patriotic education unreasonable. On the other hand, I wonder if PSL does not want to use the tactic of submitting projects that PiS will support, building a parliamentary majority and marking its political position. If this were to happen, I think it would be very dangerous for the entire October 15 Coalition and would cross the boundaries of good cooperation.
Could the PSL be tempted to threaten the existing government coalition and enter into an alliance with PiS?
In this Sejm, in my opinion, there is no possibility. This would mean cooperation with the entire PiS, and it seems to me that most PSL deputies will not agree to this. We are in a way condemned to each other, as these four elements of the October 15 Coalition. I consider straining this relationship to be extremely irresponsible.
Then let's return to education. I'm curious about the purpose of extending compulsory education to Ukrainian children, implemented precisely in Polish schools. Minister Duszczyk, in one of his interviews, seemed to suggest that it was primarily to check whether someone unauthorized was taking 800 plus. I was a bit taken aback by this.
We are in constant contact with the minister - the main goal of introducing compulsory schooling for Ukrainian children is that those who have been in the online system for 4 years, because that's 2 years of pandemics and 2 years of war, finally get access to education. Every child has a right to this, and we as a society should not be preparing a future in which a very large group of citizens - and we don't know what proportion of these children will stay with us and what proportion will return to Ukraine - are deprived of this education. Where will they find themselves in the labor market? This is our great responsibility.
Then I breathe a sigh of relief.
On the other hand, verifying the 800 plus payment is an additional goal, because we know that there is some group that is receiving this benefit, and does not live in Poland at all.
Was the compulsory education of refugee children in Polish schools consulted with the Ukrainian Ministry of Education and Science? At the beginning of the war, there was talk of not forcing all students to enter the Polish system, because we assume that Ukrainian citizens will not stay in Poland, and that we should not even rob Ukraine of its citizens, even though they would be useful in our labor market..
We are in constant contact with the Ministry of Education of Ukraine, with Minister Oksen Lisovy and with Deputy Minister Yevhen Kudriavets. The Ukrainian side accepts our idea as much as possible, agrees fully to it, what's more, it is implementing a similar solution at home, because Ukrainian children who migrated inside Ukraine and remained in the online system will also have to enroll in a stationary school from September this year.
And was there an opportunity to support the Ukrainian schools that were established after the invasion in Poland, to increase their number, so that Ukrainian children could continue their education according to their program, only that with us? Along with Ukrainian children, Ukrainian teachers escaped from Ukraine, it would be enough to make buildings available..
Such schools were established and such education was carried out outside the supervision of our educational system, but this could not go on forever, because our educational law simply does not allow it. We are in constant contact with this group of schools that functioned in this way and which will begin to follow the Polish curriculum from September 1. Why? It is not a good idea to allow this kind of exceptional functioning of a minority or refugee group, because its members then have difficulty integrating. That's why we're as interested as we can be in allowing Ukrainian children to learn Ukrainian, to have their Saturday classes, where they learn about their history, their geography, learn their songs. On the other hand, we cannot allow them to function in a separate educational system, because this, in my opinion, would have adverse social effects in the long run.
We know that there is a shortage of female teachers in Polish schools. Will the ministry reach out to Ukrainian teachers? I know that at least 350 of them have already nostrified their diplomas with the support of the CARE Foundation. Will they teach both Polish and Ukrainian children? Will they become cultural assistants? .
We very much want to include these teachers in our educational system, and this is already happening. If they have their diplomas nostrified, which is the responsibility of the Ministry of Science, with which we are working all the time, so that a larger number can do this, then the teacher, if he knows Polish, can teach the subject he taught in Ukraine.
And if he failed to nostrify his diploma?
Then he can work as a teacher of Ukrainian, for example, or as an intercultural assistant.
Are you holding talks with local governments on this issue? Will there be no resistance from their side? .
We will try to help local governments to employ these people. We have managed to win a very large European grant. At the moment we are at the stage of finishing writing the government program that will manage this money. A very large part of these funds will be used precisely for local governments, for hiring intercultural assistants. A really important issue is hiring them for Ukrainian children of Roma origin. They, too, will be subject to compulsory schooling, and often they don't even know Ukrainian. Some can't write, they can't read, because they had a problem accessing schools in Ukraine.
Will Ukrainian enter the Polish program as an elective option, like Spanish or German?
Ukrainian language is already in the Polish system. If a school gathers a sufficient group of students, if it is possible to find a Ukrainian language teacher, any school can organize such classes.
Some children will probably need preparatory classes. Will they fit into the schools?".
Preparatory classes will be able to be created, but this is a decision of either the local government or the school director. We have provided local governments and principals with a set of best practices that were developed during the first wave of refugee admissions. If it happens that a larger group of Ukrainian students is admitted to a small school, there may be a situation in which such a preparatory branch will prove necessary, and then by all means it can be created. But I will honestly say that I do not expect a lot of preparatory branches to be created at this stage. I think that these will be rather exceptional situations arising from the fact that there was a collective accommodation center somewhere and there is a larger group of refugees.
And has it been possible to truncate the core curriculum, adjust the program?.
I have the impression that our program is still overloaded, despite the fact that we managed to cut those 20%. - in quotation marks, of course - of the core curriculum cut. On top of that, it still focuses on knowledge and information rather than competencies and skills. This change is still ahead of us, but it's a process, it won't succeed overnight or even from year to year. Teachers need to be prepared, as well as parents. We are working on it.
Teachers are full of concerns. Slawomir Broniarz, in a recent conversation on TOK FM, raised serious doubts about the capacity of Polish schools. He spoke of the ministry's great optimism and gave as an example the forks of Ukrainian children expected in Polish schools this year. And these forks are very wide, between 20 thousand and 150 thousand. You spoke of 80 thousand..
I do not know where Mr. Chairman Broniarz got such information. Presenting data in this way is unreasonable. Indeed, it is difficult to determine the exact number, but this is probably obvious to anyone who realizes that these children are migrating. After all, there are children who are even in Ukraine a couple of times a month, a couple of times in Poland. Analyzing our various data and those we received from the Ukrainian side, we estimate that this is 60 to 80 thousand children who will reach the Polish educational system. This is a large number, but it is one that does not cause concern among local government officials.
Have you talked to local government officials? What is the mood, do they feel prepared?".
I have talked. They claim that it should not be a problem at all. Of course, it's a challenge, because any new child, especially one who doesn't speak Polish, is a challenge for a particular teacher, for a particular class. But we can handle it. We are well prepared.
And do we have enough desks, tables and benches? Because until recently, schools were overloaded. Double yearbooks, shift work.
We say all the time that schools are overloaded. And the truth is that overburdened are usually schools in big cities, while in small towns and villages, schools are very often very small and few children attend them.
Well, yes, but the refugees are where it's easier to get jobs, and it's easier to get jobs in the big cities. The fact of the matter is that the refugees are in the big cities.
In large cities, it may indeed be necessary from time to time to enlarge the class size. We have given such an opportunity, but we expect that these will be isolated situations. Because also keep in mind that we are dealing with the low, the next year classes are getting smaller. We can really cope.
Are Polish students prepared for their colleagues from Ukraine? You can see anti-Ukrainian sentiment in society, susceptibility to propaganda oozed through various channels by the Kremlin..
Both of our centers, that is, the Center for Education Development and the Institute of Educational Research, are currently working on mass training, which we will also offer as part of this European grant. It's a program that will cover integration, working in a multicultural environment, working with a traumatized child. There will be more of these tools than before. Teachers will feel the difference from the help they received little of when Ukrainians came to Poland in that first refugee wave.
And what about psychologists? Because there were not enough psychologists for Polish students. We know that we have a mental health crisis among young people. And now children with war trauma will be added..
That's why we want Ukrainian psychologists to help Ukrainian students. That's why we are also working very closely with the Ministry of Science with regard to this group, so that the process of nostrification of their diplomas will be as quick as possible. But we realize that we will not be able to meet all the needs, probably some of this help will have to be provided in the form of group therapies.
I understand that not only because this is an effective form of therapy, but Ukrainian psychologists are also scarce?.
Definitely not enough in relation to the needs.
Could you name some NGOs that have dealt with refugees before, collaborated and produced these tools that will now be used more widely? Is it just the much organizations, like UNICEF or CARE, or the ones that organized from the bottom up and took responsibility after February 24?.
I have been working with a team of various charities, NGOs, and at the moment I have set up a team to monitor the integration process. We will meet once a month to discuss all difficult situations to best respond to challenges.
This team consists of NGOs, charities, UNICEF or CARE, representatives of schools that have functioned as Ukrainian so far, and local government officials. I think we have not left out any community that can help in this process.
