Let's not kid ourselves - a child is difficult to handle, especially if you don't have time for him. In turbo-capitalism, no one has it, even less for activities that will bear fruit in years to come or whose results are unquantifiable and do not bring social prestige. And reproductive work does not bring any prestige in Poland," says Michal R. Wisniewski, author of the book "Banning the Ball. How Poles hate children".
This text has been auto-translated from Polish.
Paulina Malochleb: How are children hated in a country where the family is considered sacred?
Michael R. Wisniewski: Family, but no longer children. Well, since we stopped living in multi-generational homes, since children have disappeared from public space - or are allowed into it conditionally - we have stopped seeing them at all. They are not near us, or if they are, the noise they make, their moods and behaviors we try to control and supervise so that they are invisible. This is how it is on the plane, in the public transport, in stores and restaurants. Children are supposed to be quiet and motionless. Their exclusion is invisible because they themselves have neither the language nor the tools to talk about it. And quite a few of their spokespeople - like Superniania a dozen years ago - cast them in the role of victims in an even more explicit way. The Polish media, pretending to be pluralistic, continue to invite advocates of spanking, considering such measures a legitimate and sensible method of upbringing that has nothing to do with beating. Such a view, for example, was defended by Krzysztof Bosak in 2018 on mainstream television. Last year, he saw nothing inappropriate in the words of a Confederation spokeswoman who recommended spanking out of concern for the child.
How did it come to this, that - seemingly child-centric - we are trying to erase children?.
I wanted to show not individual, pathological cases, but the system of exclusion. Because the new excluded in capitalist society are children. I tried to get to the root of the problem - it is not the parents, they are not the ones who raise children in some malicious way. It is capitalism that is responsible for the fact that we are stressed-out adults who carry violence from the workplace into the home. Capitalism can be equipped, as in Scandinavian countries, with mechanisms to guard against its negative effects - but in Poland they are very fragile. We transfer violence, we pour out our frustration on those closest to us and the most vulnerable, namely children. We make some deals with them, negotiate with them - we have contracts, exactly like in a corporation.
What are the ways in which the dehumanization of children is carried out?
First of all, they are not treated as human beings. They are denied the right to feelings, such as anger. Society is disturbed when a child cries, shows his emotions in a public place. The parent is immediately stressed, feeling that he has to put out these emotions, to silence the child. It is often said that a child is polite when he doesn't make any sounds. But how can this be required of an infant, for example, or a two-year-old? They also have no right to their desires - because when they show them, they are considered to be demanding or spoiled. Adults want something all the time, and then they are not labeled that way. Today, it is very common for adults to want the same things as children: Lego releases collections of building blocks for adults, which are definitely more expensive than any children's set. So the gap between what is allowed to adults and what is allowed to children is apparent, and it is widening even further before our eyes.
And at the same time you write about how hatred of children often stems from envy - in the face of their rights, privileges, lack of responsibilities.
Yes, you can see this in the conflicts between parents and non-children. Non-children envy parents' priority to take vacations at work. They often don't see that on vacations, when school is closed, it is the child who needs a caregiver at home. They only see the parent who takes time off during the vacations. At the same time, we fail to notice that often the background of these conflicts is capitalism, not the home situation. It is the employer who creates the division of workers, generates conflict with vacation policy. It is very common to treat various child allowances or social allowances as unjustified privileges for adults: after all, this is how 500 and 800 plus were talked about - as funds that parents will get and spend themselves, without looking at the children. Nor is it too apparent that it is more expensive to organize a trip during the vacations than during the off-season, when children have to be in schools. This is a problem, not a privilege.
Children harm because they are noisy?.
The Polish middle class longs for quiet - they want to live in estates that developers often call rather idyllic: "Cichy Zakątek", "Zielone Ustronie". It allows some noises - such as cars pulling up to the block, learning to play instruments - while it considers others unnecessary, low, inappropriate, and this is the case, for example, with ball games or the playground. It is the adults who determine what sounds are an acceptable necessity and what sounds are excessive, and it is they who post the "no ball games" placards. Meanwhile, society as such is noisy, there is nothing we can do about it.
School is also a space of hate?.
Less than it might seem. Because school, with its universal educational obligation, is a space of freedom for children from their parents. In German discussions of homeschooling, it is made very clear that it is a kind of parental violence, that children have the right to interact with peers outside of parental supervision. They have the right to confront other people, attitudes, value systems.
What about their food? For a long time there has been discussion about school lunches, convenience stores. Regimentation of food is also a way of dehumanization for you?.
Kids on school trips in movie theaters reach for the biggest popcorn because they can escape parental control for a while. The same thing is happening under the frogs - an orgy of buying, sweet drinks, chips, as much as the pocket money will allow. Children prefer to use cash, because then they don't have the control that, for example, BLIK gives parents. It is apparent then that they have not had the space of freedom, so they have not learned self-control. Meanwhile, capitalism is turning children's food into things that are cheap, easy and fast. Check out the "children's menu" at a restaurant - nuggets, "broth", penne with tomato sauce over and over again. No one would treat adults like that - "you have a choice of three things in the restaurant," and it seems to us that for children such a list is ok.
School lunches, however, prove that it is difficult to feed children.
Menus from school cafeterias are the result of technocratic thinking - we want to set a system and do not wish for exceptions to it. We think of children as computer programs. We write code and expect it to work flawlessly. Obesity levels in children have been measured and yeasty foods have been withdrawn from school stores because they were deemed unhealthy, and sugar standards have been introduced. The store assortment, by the way, has long been debated, with several attempts and failures to finally introduce free lunches for all children in Polish schools. The last time Agnieszka Dziemianowicz-Bąk wanted to do this was in 2022. Meanwhile, in Finland, for example, this is the norm, an elementary part of the education program. When one examines various educational stumbling blocks, the failings of the state system come to light.
Is there no escape from this?
There are, of course. But they are costly and involve moving the child to a private alternative school, where tuition is about 2,000 zlotys per month. It's hard to blame a parent who wants the best for his or her child, but we need to be aware of the social cost of this middle-class exodus from state schools. These are the people with cultural capital who could force a correction of the system, bring the school management to the table, determine what the problem is and ways to fix it. However, when they leave the system, the people who remain yield to the system, do not make the drive for change. Thus, escapes from the public system are again inherent in the logic of capitalism and available only to the privileged.
Doesn't this Polish desire for supervision - because in our country the discussion of homeschooling goes in a completely different direction - stem from the belief that the child is the property of the parents?.
The right wing in Poland treats children as a resource, liberals as a project. Both sides take children out of state schools, exercise full control over them, instruct them even in public spaces. For both sides, the child is a kind of calling card to confirm the superiority of the parents' views, the greater value of their lifestyle. The child becomes hostage to the dreams and desires of the parents, his career is supposed to be the embodiment of their ambitions. In this order, the child becomes an accessory to fulfill the needs of the adult - thus, he cannot have his own.
Child abuse is acceptable because it is invisible .
Disrespect towards children is the base on which various superstructures grow. We have Bosak, who wants to beat children, there is Superniania, who sends them to the corner, we have people using psychological tricks, hiding violence under various masks - negotiation, economic. Let's not kid ourselves - a child is difficult to handle, especially if you don't have time for him. In turbo-capitalism, no one has it, even less for activities that will bear fruit in years to come or whose results are unquantifiable and do not bring social prestige. And reproductive work brings no prestige in Poland.
How come a 45-year-old guy writes a book about children? .
I believe that men should use their privileged position to fight for change, even if they intuitively feel that their position may be threatened. This is our duty to the common good. I have leftist views, dealing with childophobia was for me a natural consequence of dealing with other mechanisms of exclusion - classism, homophobia, transphobia, hatred of women. And let's not kid ourselves - it's much easier for me than for feminists, because I've never had to deal with oppression regarding reproductive rights and responsibilities.
And do you have children .
Do you remember how many children Janusz Korczak had?
None.
No, he had all of them. I wrote my book with all Polish children in mind.
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Michael R. Wisniewski's book Ban the Ball Game. How Poles hate childrenwill be released on August 28 by the Czarne publishing house..
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Michał R. Wiśniewski - writer, publicist, specializes in popular and digital culture and contemporary mores. Nominated for the Conrad Award for debut of the year. Author of the novels Jetlag (2014), God Hates Poland (2015) and Hello World (2017) and the books We are all cyborgs. How the Internet Changed Poland (2019) and Lethal Apps. How smartphones changed our world (2021). He contributes to Polita, Diweekly and Mint Magazine. He has published in "Gazeta Wyborcza", "Nowa Fantastyka" and "Znak" magazine, among others. Former editor-in-chief of "Kawaii" magazine. Homepage: jetlag.com.pl.
